Trifolium patens

Mili Gorge, Crete.

comments (13)

Ferdy Christant

Lion

Might this be Trifolium campestre instead? It is more commonly reported from Greece and at least visually seems a closer match. Posted 11 months ago
1. Patomarazul
  
  Lion
  
  Hello Ferdy, I have selected the species based on this: http://www.cretanflora.com/trifolium_patens.html
  but I will ask this people who also have a group in Facebook what do they think and will come back to you with their feedback. Posted 11 months ago
2. 1. Patomarazul
    
    Lion
    
    Reply from the FB groups administrator:
    <<Stephen LentonAdministrador
    Colaborador destacado
    I think you are correct. I have added another photo showing more details of the T. campestre leaf. But, also check the distribution map at the bottom of the page for T patens. >>....he refers to the link above Posted 11 months ago, modified 11 months ago
  2. 1. Ferdy Christant
      
      Lion
      
      Thanks for double-checking!
      
      I don't know that administrator, but I assume they're knowledgeable and maybe even a botanist. I would normally not defy such judgement as I'm not an expert myself. However, in this specific situation I'm still puzzled, and I'll explain why.
      
      https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=7094&taxon_id=57076
      
      Above are 246 photos of Trifolium campestre from Greece. I hope you agree that they are visually very similar to your photo. It includes some photos that are very detailed, and even petals and leaves seem to match as far as I can tell.
      
      https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?page=2&taxon_id=51875
      Above are over a 150,000 photos of Red Clover. I stopped scrolling after a few hundred but none seem to match your photo. It looks quite different.
      
      AI apps like PlantNet, report your photo as Trifolium campestre, with high confidence. It doesn't even mention Red Clover as a possibility. AI apps may not always get it right, but I think it's another piece of the puzzle.
      
      http://www.cretanflora.com/trifolium_patens.html
      
      The reference photo is yellow and the plant description mentions yellow petals. This does not match literature from other sources:
      
      "The flowers are dark pink with a paler base, 12–15 mm (0.5–0.6 in) long, produced in a dense inflorescence"
      
      It seems pretty much every photo online of Red Clover is indeed red/pink, not yellow. Here's 58 photos of Red Clover from Greece:
      
      https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=7094&taxon_id=51875
      
      None are yellow and the plant petals look radically different from your photo.
      
      I could of course still be wrong and missing something obscure. Posted 11 months ago
    2. 1. Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        Hi Ferdy, I can ask this, yes, botanist, further information as of why this for him is T. patens and add it here but this is not on my priority list for now, maybe this weekend. In the meantime I have just removed the species ID and eventually I can remove the posting if it is generating too much polemic on the species ID choice because I am not an expert and I don't want to spend too much energy on species related argumenting.... Cheers! Posted 11 months ago, modified 11 months ago
      2. Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        Removing the species ID for now I think is a good idea, but there's absolutely no need to remove the post. Discussing species IDs when they are not obviously clear or agreed is a perfectly normal process that should happen on a platform like this.
        
        I agree that this sometimes can be time-consuming and it's fine to delay your response, there's no rush to it. Posted 11 months ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        I had a free moment today so I asked again the same botanist if he can provide further proof that T. patens can have yellow flowers. I will let you know what he replies. Posted 11 months ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        While I wait for his answer maybe the confusion here is that is T. patens and pratense could have been separated as 2 species because I find several T. patens with yellow flowers:
        https://greece.inaturalist.org/taxa/491359-Trifolium-patens
        https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trifolium_patens
        https://portal.cybertaxonomy.org/flora-greece/cdm_dataportal/media/46bdd6c5-b064-433a-afe2-2bac5ecc045f Posted 11 months ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        Last reply from the expert:<<Just type Trifolium patens into google search then click Images, all the finds are yellow, perhaps he is getting confused by Trifolium pratense which is pink. The photos I used is by Dr Armin Jagel an expert botanist and the text is by Prof Arne Strid another expert. What more can I say. ????>> He refers to his page and he has identified my picture based on his page. I trust him and I thin the confusion here comes from the fact that here when you add Trifolum patens it connects you to T. pratense. This is also my final check. Posted 11 months ago, modified 11 months ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        and the ???? was actually a smiley (and sorry for the typos, I suck at typing in general...) Posted 11 months ago, modified 11 months ago
        
        Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        I think that must be it. It was identified here as pratense, which seems an impossible match. Patens definitely looks possible/likely. The leaves also match closely. I would suggest you go with that ID.
        
        These two species name being so close in spelling is confusing indeed. Posted 11 months ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        I think when I added patens it was selecting pratense as default. Should I add manually the species Trifolium patens then? Posted 11 months ago
        
        Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        Already did it for you. I had to manually cut the incorrect synonym link between the 2 species, which JD picked up from Wikipedia. Posted 11 months ago