Clarkcomanthus mirus - tentative ID

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comments (15)

Christine Young

Lion

Looks like a conifer :) Posted 4 years ago
1. Ferdy Christant
  
  Lion
  
  Super obscure species, this very post by Marta now ranks #5 or #6 on Google :) Posted 4 years ago
2. 1. Patomarazul
    
    Lion
    
    Well..I hope I don't anger any scientist if they think I am wrong :-)
    I have added tentative because this is what it is :-D Posted 4 years ago
  2. 1. Ferdy Christant
      
      Lion
      
      What will they do if they get angry? Throw a pencil...hehe. Posted 4 years ago
    2. 1. Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        They just send you angry e-mails! I had to block one guy because he started sending me nasty e-mails in Flickr because I had one bug species named wrong. He was mad but he never provided me the right species either. he said he was in a quest to clean up the internet from wrong IDs. Fine, but there are ways and ways :-D Posted 4 years ago, modified 4 years ago
      2. Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        Absolutely, in a digital world, tone is everything. You have to work much harder to come across as friendly compared to real life, where you can immediately detect/see that.
        
        Christine and I recently also had a similar case (on Facebook) of a person probably intending well, yet communicating like this "This is INCORRECT!!!"
        
        I still believe he meant well, because nobody would bother putting in effort to correct a species just for the sake of being a troll. It's just people are clumsy, because of the digital distance. I think those people should first follow a course in civility or something.
        
        Do want to point out in your example that it can and should be possible to prove that a species is incorrect whilst not knowing what the correct one is. That's a very common situation, for as long as the tone is reasonable. Posted 4 years ago
        
        Christine Young
        
        Lion
        
        How awful that you have had someone's vitriol directed at you, Marta! Ugh. Why can't people just be nice and helpful?!
        
        @Ferdy, I was wondering about the FB guy and saw your reply. I thought he might be rude, lol, but couldn't tell. So, I'm glad you stepped in!
        
        Communicating online can definitely be tricky. It's so easy to take things the wrong way. Sarcasm and joking are perfect examples. I alternate between sincerity and silliness and am a big teaser, but sometimes worry that people will think I'm serious when I'm joking (excluding Ferdy, of course, who might be a bigger teaser than I am).
        Posted 4 years ago, modified 4 years ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        Ferdy, How does this sound to you? Am I misinterpreting?
        
        Message 1:
        jgruber111 said:
        Not Laphria. Please post it to iNaturalist to get an ID before putting a name on it.
        Message 2
        Patomarazul Oh, and might I ask where you got your original ID? Did you find a similar-looking picture and just decide that it was the same species?
        Posted 4 years ago
        
        Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        How I would interpret it:
        
        Message 1 needs info on WHY it's not Laphria, that would make it much more constructive and educational.
        
        Message 2 is a valid question to ask, yet asked in a needlessly condescending way.
        
        So good intent (probably), but poor to very poor delivery. I can imagine it comes across as offensive, or even mean. I would agree that it is.
        
        My personal and practical take on these situations: don't let it get to you, or your emotions. This happens a lot online and I don't expect it to improve, so the only thing you can do is to harden yourself and take the emotional angle out of it. I would simply reply in a dry way: "WHY is it not Laphria. Based on what?".
        
        Basically, to keep the eye on the ball, and to dismiss the emotional part. See it as a transaction, and deal with it in a scientific way, not an emotional conversation.
        
        So in my mind, I would probably be thinking "this person is an asshole, yet he may be right. Let's check".
        
        I will admit that this is not everybody's favorite approach, it's not very satisfactory to dismiss your emotions. I do it because I've been online for 25 years and have dealt with gazillions of these situations that have hardened me. Not in real life, but online. I have a thick concrete wall that shields me from feeling offended, most of all when it comes to online strangers.
        
        To illustrate that point: when I do online gaming (I still occasionally do) almost every sessions somebody says: "I hope your mother dies of cancer".
        
        If somebody would say this to my face, I can't guarantee they would make it out the door in one piece. Online...I learned to completely dismiss this ultimate offense.
        
        This case is a lot more mild, and different. It would come across to me as still somewhat mean and arrogant, yet I would still assume its clumsy communication and partly "lost in translation". It's not a troll. Trolls do not correct species, they destroy things. So somewhere in that person, there is some good intent, and I would try to focus on that. If you can, it also shows you as the stronger and more emotionally mature person, which is good for self confidence.
        
        To end, everybody is of course different and has different buttons that trigger them. The above is simply how I deal with it, it doesn't mean it works for everyone. I realize it must sound very male to dismiss emotions where we can, but I emphasize it's not what I want, it's simply the only solution that worked for me. I'm actually a sensitive person myself, in real life.
        
        Posted 4 years ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        I wish I could always be so thoughtful at the moment these things happen but I have ADHD and therefore amygdala hijack at times. Over my life I have got much better at controlling my emotions in situations like these but there are these days when the amygdala and the frontal cortex do not make the right connection in my brain and I react to certain A-holish comments that may be well intended but still made ina very A-holish manner. In any case with this person I reacted the ebst way to avoid a conflict which is I blcoked him from my Flickr and problem solved. Posted 4 years ago, modified 4 years ago
        
        Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        I didn't know that, thank you for showing vulnerability, that takes courage. It is of course unfair that it is you that needs to do the work to process emotions somebody else has triggered.
        
        If somebody is beyond the benefit of the doubt, indeed blocking is probably the easiest way. If it helps and you run into another such situation, feel free to forward it to me in private, before you respond. Just to get a second opinion, if you want.
        
        And I would like to end by the tactic of putting things in perspective. 99% of the online collaboration regarding your awesome posts are positive to very positive, or so I hope. That's how I perceive it. In that sense, it's not worthwhile to stress over 1%. Although I know this may not work or feel that way for you. Plus, in the cases where one of us go wrong in ID-ing a species...it's not a crime.
        
        Your sum total of wildlife observations are invaluable. In quantity, quality, and in the particular habitat that few of us ever get to experience. It's something to be very proud of. Posted 4 years ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        Thanks for the kudos and understanding, really appreciate it :-)
        Well this did not happen in JD but in Flickr so I just used it as an example but here in JD things are Ok with some exceptional events you already know and that were solved already :-) Posted 4 years ago
        
        Ferdy Christant
        
        Lion
        
        I want to give another insight into why so many experts seem somewhat aggressive or frustrated. Not all, but many. With expert in this context I mean somebody who has studied the particular species group and is considered an authority.
        
        The thing we're doing, citizen science, is a relatively new thing. Some 20 years ago (or even as little as 10), taxonomy/zoology was strictly the domain of professionals and academics, yet now we have an army of amateurs and enthusiasts recording data. Which in itself is wonderful and has great potential to advance science and understanding. It's something to be cherished.
        
        Yet in particular on the huge platforms (iNaturalist, observation.org, etc) there's some very big issues:
        
        - Experts are in short supply and the amount of observations is far beyond their capacity to review/correct. This could lead to 50-75% unidentified, which above all is frustrating to the non-expert.
        
        - Or, that 50-75% is in part wrongly identified, for example beginners making unfounded identifications. What makes this even worse are the AI detection tools that try to identify automatically from the photo. They are a tool to help, yet by beginners often used as a definitive answer.
        
        - Not only are there too many wrong IDs to correct (not enough experts), correcting just a single one can take a huge effort as it can be a time consuming social conversation, sometimes very frustrating ones.
        
        So from the experts point of view, it seems a hopeless situation. A lot of observations will never get ID-ed (too many to review), a lot of them are wrong or too specific, and correcting them is an impossible, uphill battle.
        
        To be clear, this is never an excuse to be mean or hostile, yet in part it may be an explanation.
        
        I guess we're blessed by being small, most of the above are not really an issue at JD, or at least only incidentally so. Anyway, hope this gives some insight into the frustrations of "citizen science". Not a frustration by me, yet by many experts. Posted 4 years ago, modified 4 years ago
        
        Patomarazul
        
        Lion
        
        You know? I also understand their point of view. I am molecular biologist and I knpw very well that some species like sponges and corals can only really be told apart by molecular research for example. However, what grown up people, scientists like this man forget is simply one thing: manners. Some little time ago you would not approach someone you do not know in this rude way to make your point and with a blaming finger. Some people has completely lost manners on their online communication. The value of their message is lost because of their rude and condescending approach. These people decides to approach you with a blaming tone instead of kindly remind you the reasons why your spotting may not be what you think it is. They also choose not to understand that you mean no harm by adding a name to a picture of something you have seen in nature. In my oppinion the only way for me to preserve my respect toward these people when they show no respect in their ways to approach me is to get away from them after telling them what I think on the 'how' they did whatever they did. The 'why' may be right but the 'how' screws the whole message and they need to understand that. Or otherwise out of my life they go, as I do not need people like this coming to me, I already have my daily share of A-h at work and other places, to deal with. Period :-) Posted 4 years ago, modified 4 years ago
3. Patomarazul
  
  Lion
  
  The mini pine trees of the sea. For others they look like wigs or feathers but this one with its green it really looks like a piece of pine branch, yes :-) Posted 4 years ago